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 A seize case study | An educational activity 
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Post A seize case study | An educational activity
Hi guys,

I have no problem....err... well I did but don't worry about that I already got a new kit.

The purpose of this post is to present a case of a seize to allow for the community to theorize what may have went wrong. The answer to this case is still inconclusive. The hope is that this will help community members to learn how to analyze and approach similar situations or to prevent a similar situation from happening.

Below you will see some photos, after which I will present additional information that may be helpful to solving the mystery.

Kit: Stage6 Sport Pro 70cc Cylinder with 12mm Gudgeon Pin

Carburetor: Dellorto 21mm PHBG Black edition (MJ89 - PJ50 - IJ40 - W7 Center notch)

Exhaust: Athena Sporting (Stage6 Pro exhaust Athena variant)

Spark Plug: NGK B9HS

Premix ratio 40:1

87 Octane E10 unleaded gas (most likely)


Salem, MA (seaside town) October 11, 2014 around 11PM.
Temperature: ~50 degrees fahrenheit
Humidity: ~60%
Elevation: Sea level

The cylinder:

Image

Image

The Piston

Image

Image

Image


The seized happened after WOT down a long road at top speed and RPM of ~10500 then slowing down, to a near stop then proceeding to an intersection 3 blocks away. Throttle was lifted and coasted to a stop. RPM's were from 7000 to 9000 rpm while coasting to the stop due to the effect of the Red Malossi Torque Spring causing engine braking. The bike seized at a red light at full stop.

Upon initial inspection, the cylinder turned over when kicked, and it was discovered that the spark plug was significantly loose (practically wiggling).

Temperature appeared to be running around 120-150 degree fahrenheit throughout during idle but would would read lower than 100 when moving at times. I suspect that the temperature reading was off due to the cold air hitting directly onto the sensor, reading lower than actual cylinder temps. During the summer the temperatures were around 305 degrees fahrenheit consistently.


If you look closely on the piston, there appears to be a piece of metal protruding from the top of the piston in a shape of a C of about 2mm thick.

Wrist Pins, circlips, and other realted equipment appeared to be secure and healthy.




have fun sherlock

_________________
2008 Yamaha ZUMA - Boston Metro Agility Project

STATUS: Tuning New Stage6 Race MKII (Break-In Period])

GOALS:
    0-40 MPH Acceleration in <5.5 Seconds
    20-40 MPH Acceleration in ~4.00 Seconds
    Attain Top Speed of >55 MPH


PARTS SEEKING TO ACQUIRE:
    MHR Overange Kit | Suspension Kit | AC to DC Rectifier | Slick Street Tires | Stage6 Torque Control MKII Clutch

PARTS ACQUIRED:
Stage6 Racing MKII 70cc Kit (12mm Gudgeon Pin) w/ ~0.70 squish - S6-7416609 | Dellorto 21mm PHBG Black Race Edition Carburetor - R 2695 | Motion Pro Throttle Cable - 07-0857 | Motion Pro Throttle Sleeve - 01-0087 | Polini Cable Choke Kit - P316.0010 | Athena Sporting Exhaust (Athena Variant of Stage6 Pro) - P400485120002 | TPR VForce3 Reed Block- 9931620 | UNI Mini Airbox Filters - UFV-6 | Stage6 HPC Crankshaft (12mm Gudgeon Pin) - S6-8016600/12 | Dr. Pulley Variator w/ Sliders - V 151201 | Malossi White Torque Spring - M297047W | Doppler Clutch Springs - 323783 | Koso XR-S Speedometer - BB006B00 | Koso D55 Tach/Temp Analog Multimeter with Digital Display - BA551B20


Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:45 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
You chunked something
what I'm not sure

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2008 zuma dual headlight mod koso mirrors liquid cooled polini corsa kit leo vince zx stage 6 variator rally kit custom red paintFUEL INJECTEDsoon to be 100cc
2008 stella olive custom ported 177 cc kit dechromed ford tear drop tail light alive and breathing and awaiting cosmtic surgery thanks to an trump cager
1985 elite 150 how long can i leave it stock


Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:59 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
The piece of metal on the crown it the culprit. Got a better view of it?

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MHR Hyper Race, 70cc #318440 / Yasuni C-16 pipe, Stage 6 HPC 12mm Crank, Polini C-3 Race Brg. MVT premium, IGGY, TNT- Adj- Inj Pump / Y-Plate, Motul 710, Malossi Over-Range Var-6.0 rollers,Torque Boost Rear Pulley & Stage 6 k-belt, Orange, Contra / 1 spacer, DR HIT Clutch,red malossi race / no pillows+ STG 6 433 Bell, 15-50 Up Gear, Moto Tassinari VF3 Reed's & 4mm spacer, Clone-Blk 21mm, MJ #-94,PJ#42, W-7 2nd , 45*Slide, OEM Airbox , Snorkle out, 5 vents, Side Stand, Daytona Style Alloy Wheels,WD Torsion Arm, Stage 6 R/T Multimeter, Strt-8-HD Fan Trimmed + Air Scoop 50cc Fan Housing, Frt - Pirelli - SL 26 - 120/90/10, Rear- Shinko - 160/70/12, Frando Racing / 5DV-001 Ceramic Rear Shoes - Sigma BC-8 Speedometer-


Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:04 pm
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scooters and mods: '08 Zuma, "The Fly," '96 Jog "In progress."
Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
Checked the threads in your head? I'm wondering if some got knocked/shaved off what with the lose sparkplug and whatnot.

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08 Zuma "The Fly" 50: Stage6 Racing Mk.1 (0.7 squish), Athena Race exhaust (S6 Pro), Malossi RHQ crank, Doppler 15/50s, Dellorto 21mm PHBG DS (60/42/90), Top Perf. Vforce3 reed valve, Malossi Multivar w/drive face, Malossi Delta Clutch & Wing bell (Yellow contra, yellow clutch springs on stiffest), Stage 6 R/T forks, Stage6 R/T 4 pot brake, S6 280mm big brake, Aerox 100 rims, S6 CNC'd controls, Brembo master cylinder, Hoca/Bando ignition, naked bars, manual petcock, Pirelli SL26s, dual light mod, re-profiled seat, LED signals, doodads and gizmos (TT Vapor, Harris Project R1 grips, silly stuff) and always running Amsoil Dominator.


Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:57 pm
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scooters and mods: 05 Z50 4200 miles, 70cc Polini, 84 jet, Leo Vince zx, Athena Variator, stock clutch w/LV yellow springs and Athena contr
Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
it coukd just be something that got sucked in. Do you have holes in your airbox on the wrong side of the filter - like I did before jmkjr pointed that out?

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'05 Zuma 50, Athena sport 70cc (12mm piston) with Polini head (.9 squish), B9ES spark plug; timing advanced about 2˚; Yasuni C16 exhaust, Buzzetti kick stand to make room for it (and Stage6 paddock stand after dropping the freaking bike because of the kick stand); stock airbox no snorkel, 5 x 1/2" holes; Stage6 21mm racing PHBG, 45/95/W7 1 lean/40 slide; Polini/Power One 12mm HPC crank; Athena 15/50 gears (also have 14/42s pressed into a gearbox cover, just switched back and like the 15/50s so far); 107mm Malossi Delta clutch, "racing" red springs/lighter "racing" counterweights ± 6800 RPM engagement, Stage6 Kupplungsglocke (bell - the light one); Malossi 6112811 Overrange kit, red contra and 28.2G rollers; VForce 3 reeds; Michelin Bopper tires; back to the stock shock; dual headlight wiring; C3 mirrors; Trailtech TTO tachometer and temp gauge.


Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:07 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
@corrosion Yes it appears that that metal chunk is the culprit however I don't know what's it's origins are. It is stuck (melted to the crown) but the chunk it self looks very geometric. The crosssection I believe is a perfect square and has an even/consistent angle throughout it's curvature. A chunk of the motor I'd imagine would look less uniform and more shrapnel like.

@jmkjr72 & @Fscott It is because of the above reason I'm not so sure that it came from another part of the motor that was damaged. However I will double check the Spark Plug Threads.

@Nick I have holes in my airbox but there are Uni Filters in them. So it should be alright regardless of side. I have two holes on the wrong side by accident but they have filters in them. I believe that it may be more likely that something was sucked in but it's peculiar that rather than a piece of sand or pebble, it's something metallic.


I should also mention to you guys that I had been riding for about 4 hours with occasional stops before then and there were several all out blasts down straight ways. There were no noticeable changes in behavior. The Seize was very sudden and did not have the typical lock up at the wheels often associated with Seizes. It was more of just a sudden loss of compression and a slow dying of the motor that spanned a couple of seconds.

_________________
2008 Yamaha ZUMA - Boston Metro Agility Project

STATUS: Tuning New Stage6 Race MKII (Break-In Period])

GOALS:
    0-40 MPH Acceleration in <5.5 Seconds
    20-40 MPH Acceleration in ~4.00 Seconds
    Attain Top Speed of >55 MPH


PARTS SEEKING TO ACQUIRE:
    MHR Overange Kit | Suspension Kit | AC to DC Rectifier | Slick Street Tires | Stage6 Torque Control MKII Clutch

PARTS ACQUIRED:
Stage6 Racing MKII 70cc Kit (12mm Gudgeon Pin) w/ ~0.70 squish - S6-7416609 | Dellorto 21mm PHBG Black Race Edition Carburetor - R 2695 | Motion Pro Throttle Cable - 07-0857 | Motion Pro Throttle Sleeve - 01-0087 | Polini Cable Choke Kit - P316.0010 | Athena Sporting Exhaust (Athena Variant of Stage6 Pro) - P400485120002 | TPR VForce3 Reed Block- 9931620 | UNI Mini Airbox Filters - UFV-6 | Stage6 HPC Crankshaft (12mm Gudgeon Pin) - S6-8016600/12 | Dr. Pulley Variator w/ Sliders - V 151201 | Malossi White Torque Spring - M297047W | Doppler Clutch Springs - 323783 | Koso XR-S Speedometer - BB006B00 | Koso D55 Tach/Temp Analog Multimeter with Digital Display - BA551B20


Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:49 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
Almost looks like a 1/2 coil of Heliocoil. Did the motor have any such Thread repair done to it? There are wire clips that keep the little filter's in the UNI-Vents. Are they all accounted for?


Attachments:
File comment: I don,t think it would fit past Carb/Reeds.
UNI.png
UNI.png [ 31.01 KiB | Viewed 3302 times ]

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MHR Hyper Race, 70cc #318440 / Yasuni C-16 pipe, Stage 6 HPC 12mm Crank, Polini C-3 Race Brg. MVT premium, IGGY, TNT- Adj- Inj Pump / Y-Plate, Motul 710, Malossi Over-Range Var-6.0 rollers,Torque Boost Rear Pulley & Stage 6 k-belt, Orange, Contra / 1 spacer, DR HIT Clutch,red malossi race / no pillows+ STG 6 433 Bell, 15-50 Up Gear, Moto Tassinari VF3 Reed's & 4mm spacer, Clone-Blk 21mm, MJ #-94,PJ#42, W-7 2nd , 45*Slide, OEM Airbox , Snorkle out, 5 vents, Side Stand, Daytona Style Alloy Wheels,WD Torsion Arm, Stage 6 R/T Multimeter, Strt-8-HD Fan Trimmed + Air Scoop 50cc Fan Housing, Frt - Pirelli - SL 26 - 120/90/10, Rear- Shinko - 160/70/12, Frando Racing / 5DV-001 Ceramic Rear Shoes - Sigma BC-8 Speedometer-
Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:36 am
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
I'd be inclined to take the engine off and clean it out to make sure the metal isn't still in there.

The routine is to fill it with kerosene, shake it around, drain it, repeat. Then pressure spray it with two cans of carb cleaner, one in each side.

People here have floated out pieces of metal reed without removing the engine, but to me it would be worth the extra half hour to drop the engine off and make sure there's nothing in there.

_________________
'05 Zuma 50, Athena sport 70cc (12mm piston) with Polini head (.9 squish), B9ES spark plug; timing advanced about 2˚; Yasuni C16 exhaust, Buzzetti kick stand to make room for it (and Stage6 paddock stand after dropping the freaking bike because of the kick stand); stock airbox no snorkel, 5 x 1/2" holes; Stage6 21mm racing PHBG, 45/95/W7 1 lean/40 slide; Polini/Power One 12mm HPC crank; Athena 15/50 gears (also have 14/42s pressed into a gearbox cover, just switched back and like the 15/50s so far); 107mm Malossi Delta clutch, "racing" red springs/lighter "racing" counterweights ± 6800 RPM engagement, Stage6 Kupplungsglocke (bell - the light one); Malossi 6112811 Overrange kit, red contra and 28.2G rollers; VForce 3 reeds; Michelin Bopper tires; back to the stock shock; dual headlight wiring; C3 mirrors; Trailtech TTO tachometer and temp gauge.


Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:03 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
This appears to be very similar to what happened to me.

I bet that piece of metal on the top of the piston is part of the piston that got peeled around.

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Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:01 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
See if a magnet, will attract it?

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MHR Hyper Race, 70cc #318440 / Yasuni C-16 pipe, Stage 6 HPC 12mm Crank, Polini C-3 Race Brg. MVT premium, IGGY, TNT- Adj- Inj Pump / Y-Plate, Motul 710, Malossi Over-Range Var-6.0 rollers,Torque Boost Rear Pulley & Stage 6 k-belt, Orange, Contra / 1 spacer, DR HIT Clutch,red malossi race / no pillows+ STG 6 433 Bell, 15-50 Up Gear, Moto Tassinari VF3 Reed's & 4mm spacer, Clone-Blk 21mm, MJ #-94,PJ#42, W-7 2nd , 45*Slide, OEM Airbox , Snorkle out, 5 vents, Side Stand, Daytona Style Alloy Wheels,WD Torsion Arm, Stage 6 R/T Multimeter, Strt-8-HD Fan Trimmed + Air Scoop 50cc Fan Housing, Frt - Pirelli - SL 26 - 120/90/10, Rear- Shinko - 160/70/12, Frando Racing / 5DV-001 Ceramic Rear Shoes - Sigma BC-8 Speedometer-


Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:26 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
Is the ring pin still in place
when I look at the pic again I see the ring is rotated too far on direction

Image

You can see the pin in this pic

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2008 zuma dual headlight mod koso mirrors liquid cooled polini corsa kit leo vince zx stage 6 variator rally kit custom red paintFUEL INJECTEDsoon to be 100cc
2008 stella olive custom ported 177 cc kit dechromed ford tear drop tail light alive and breathing and awaiting cosmtic surgery thanks to an trump cager
1985 elite 150 how long can i leave it stock


Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:56 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
Even if the locator pin came loose, and fell out. The ring's, would rotate into a port. You would have a wiped ring, and an elongated locator pin hole. I say.. The killer enter through the intake ports. The ring is pictured, over the pin but the ring is cut out. Is the locator in the piston? I wager it is. The pattern on the cylinder wall, and the downward impact, on the intake port. Makes me think, circlip. The wear mark... a verticle streak on the cylinder. Adjacent to the pin's location, scream's circlip. Mater of fact the only thing that makes me feel otherwise. Is the fact, your saying that both clips were in there. If that fragment is round. And is magnetic? again circlip.

Are you the one disassembling this, or did someone build it, and is telling you the outcome?

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MHR Hyper Race, 70cc #318440 / Yasuni C-16 pipe, Stage 6 HPC 12mm Crank, Polini C-3 Race Brg. MVT premium, IGGY, TNT- Adj- Inj Pump / Y-Plate, Motul 710, Malossi Over-Range Var-6.0 rollers,Torque Boost Rear Pulley & Stage 6 k-belt, Orange, Contra / 1 spacer, DR HIT Clutch,red malossi race / no pillows+ STG 6 433 Bell, 15-50 Up Gear, Moto Tassinari VF3 Reed's & 4mm spacer, Clone-Blk 21mm, MJ #-94,PJ#42, W-7 2nd , 45*Slide, OEM Airbox , Snorkle out, 5 vents, Side Stand, Daytona Style Alloy Wheels,WD Torsion Arm, Stage 6 R/T Multimeter, Strt-8-HD Fan Trimmed + Air Scoop 50cc Fan Housing, Frt - Pirelli - SL 26 - 120/90/10, Rear- Shinko - 160/70/12, Frando Racing / 5DV-001 Ceramic Rear Shoes - Sigma BC-8 Speedometer-


Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:10 pm
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
@corrosion CHEMISTRY!!! yea I'll check to see if a magnet will attract. I've been working on the bike myself along with a friend (I don't have a garage so it's at his house). Last I looked, the circlips appeared to be in place without looking too closely. While I was prepping some other stuff, m friend removed the piston and said that the gudgeon pin and circlips were all good. How would a circlip get unseated anyways? I've always associated circlips with being very secure by design.

@jmkjr72 I'll check the locator pin. That's the notch between the piston ring gap right?

_________________
2008 Yamaha ZUMA - Boston Metro Agility Project

STATUS: Tuning New Stage6 Race MKII (Break-In Period])

GOALS:
    0-40 MPH Acceleration in <5.5 Seconds
    20-40 MPH Acceleration in ~4.00 Seconds
    Attain Top Speed of >55 MPH


PARTS SEEKING TO ACQUIRE:
    MHR Overange Kit | Suspension Kit | AC to DC Rectifier | Slick Street Tires | Stage6 Torque Control MKII Clutch

PARTS ACQUIRED:
Stage6 Racing MKII 70cc Kit (12mm Gudgeon Pin) w/ ~0.70 squish - S6-7416609 | Dellorto 21mm PHBG Black Race Edition Carburetor - R 2695 | Motion Pro Throttle Cable - 07-0857 | Motion Pro Throttle Sleeve - 01-0087 | Polini Cable Choke Kit - P316.0010 | Athena Sporting Exhaust (Athena Variant of Stage6 Pro) - P400485120002 | TPR VForce3 Reed Block- 9931620 | UNI Mini Airbox Filters - UFV-6 | Stage6 HPC Crankshaft (12mm Gudgeon Pin) - S6-8016600/12 | Dr. Pulley Variator w/ Sliders - V 151201 | Malossi White Torque Spring - M297047W | Doppler Clutch Springs - 323783 | Koso XR-S Speedometer - BB006B00 | Koso D55 Tach/Temp Analog Multimeter with Digital Display - BA551B20


Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:38 am
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
The piston is moving up and down at incredible speed. If the circlip is not installed with the proper orientation it is much more likely to come out. It should be positioned with the opening facing in the direction the piston travels.

_________________
08 Zuma "The Fly" 50: Stage6 Racing Mk.1 (0.7 squish), Athena Race exhaust (S6 Pro), Malossi RHQ crank, Doppler 15/50s, Dellorto 21mm PHBG DS (60/42/90), Top Perf. Vforce3 reed valve, Malossi Multivar w/drive face, Malossi Delta Clutch & Wing bell (Yellow contra, yellow clutch springs on stiffest), Stage 6 R/T forks, Stage6 R/T 4 pot brake, S6 280mm big brake, Aerox 100 rims, S6 CNC'd controls, Brembo master cylinder, Hoca/Bando ignition, naked bars, manual petcock, Pirelli SL26s, dual light mod, re-profiled seat, LED signals, doodads and gizmos (TT Vapor, Harris Project R1 grips, silly stuff) and always running Amsoil Dominator.


Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:22 am
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Post Re: A seize case study | An educational activity
I'm not disbelieving you story. It just really looks like circlip damage. And it is not uncommon for them to dislodge. It is usualy defect( heat treatment) or improper installation, not seated As FScott, mentioned. I have heard of locator pins coming loose on Snowmobile application's. Detonation is the usual culprit, But never encountered it on a Scoot Motor. But there is a First Time for everything. Should be easy enough to rule out. You will only have one. The locator pin keeps the ring's end gap from walking into a port opening. It should be 1/2 a groove depth, into the ring groove.

Hope you get it sorted out, so it doesn't repeat itself.

PS, research Piston speed's @10k. You will be astounded!

_________________
MHR Hyper Race, 70cc #318440 / Yasuni C-16 pipe, Stage 6 HPC 12mm Crank, Polini C-3 Race Brg. MVT premium, IGGY, TNT- Adj- Inj Pump / Y-Plate, Motul 710, Malossi Over-Range Var-6.0 rollers,Torque Boost Rear Pulley & Stage 6 k-belt, Orange, Contra / 1 spacer, DR HIT Clutch,red malossi race / no pillows+ STG 6 433 Bell, 15-50 Up Gear, Moto Tassinari VF3 Reed's & 4mm spacer, Clone-Blk 21mm, MJ #-94,PJ#42, W-7 2nd , 45*Slide, OEM Airbox , Snorkle out, 5 vents, Side Stand, Daytona Style Alloy Wheels,WD Torsion Arm, Stage 6 R/T Multimeter, Strt-8-HD Fan Trimmed + Air Scoop 50cc Fan Housing, Frt - Pirelli - SL 26 - 120/90/10, Rear- Shinko - 160/70/12, Frando Racing / 5DV-001 Ceramic Rear Shoes - Sigma BC-8 Speedometer-


Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:00 am
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