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 ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap--- 
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Scoot Master

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:36 pm
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
what clutch spring do you have? what cc are you running? what rollers do you have ? what cvt do you have? These all can make change to the system in terms of top end. before you try a 12/39 gear or a 11/44 change ( I believe that is what the stock tooth is at OEM. ) ( the 11/44 ) Here is the deal with need for speed... you wont see much change without higher cc's I could hit say 65 on the bike with a 125cc but I had to change up my clutch spring, my roller weights, and get tst cvt... but you will feel a ton more power with a 155cc install because higher displacement. cvt, 100$ rollers $25 clutch spring $20 155bbk 275$ all these will give you a different feeling bike. gearing

https://www.rcscooters.com/transmission-c1e2e


12/40, your ideal gearing setup "IMO" is 12/39 but you may want the 12/40 if you have no desire to upgrade the cc on the bike.

I have done almost all the gears that are out even went 14/39 for a stent but... for the buck the money gear is 12/39 you will have to ask chris to " special " order it but its a solid gearing setup. I run 164cc and know dudes who run 218cc with this gearing so it may be a tad on the " larger" gearing set for a 125 or even a 155 but if you get the cvt tuned and find the optimal spring you will see the desired results.

cheers.

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:30 am
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Scoot Master

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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
With a 125cc setup you are very limited in making the " full spectrum of the motor show up" ... you can either have power out of the pocket / torque to get up to 30mph real fast with the 125cc engine and the clutch left eeeeking its way to 55mph.... or you can have a terrible take off or get out of the pocket and build up enough momentum to get to 60, mehhhh 62....... mehhhhh... you wont be able to get both with the 125cc. you see a little better improvement with the 155cc then a bigger jump with the 164 then a monster jump with the 218cc which will fold your skin back farther then the time I walked in on my grandma while she was laying down doing nude yoga.... I could get the bike up to 65 when i first started tinkering with the rollers and the spring but found out real quick that the setup i had was not very stable when the belt went up over the cvt and exploded and locked up the rear end of the bike while i was out on the main road in the fast lane..... I now get the desired speeds at a stable and safe run with the 164cc setup. I can sit up in a hurricane with a wind sail and still do 55mph all day long. Its a noticable diffence coupled with a ton of power. It just cost me another 3k, maybe more.... Most of these expenses were my own darn fault because I thought I could cut corners and buy cheaper stuff vs getting the recommended tried and true hardware i was prescribed at the begining from people who knew there shi t. ... my " cost saving attempts are including the pistons I've detonated, cranks I stripped, ect... ecu's i though i could get away with because they were cheaper, thought i could save money and found out if i just purchased the real good stuff the first time I wouldn't have to suffer this DOnkey show I call my life, by waisting money i was trying to " save" by not getting the good sh it the first time ...lessons learned... to make all that happen ( worth it IMO cuz i love the bike ) and I have learned a ton, but I want to share with you some stuff so you don't have to have that crap happen to you.... so just tinker with some of the beginning elements of how the cvt works and such... an example setup for you would be this...


The stock spring in the clutch system is 800rpm ( estimated ) so get a 1000rpm and a 1200 rpm spring. chris might not have some of these items posted for sale, but he has em, he is just hiding em from us and you have to be extra nice to him and he will then reveal to you the hidden merchandise ... but you have to ask him nicely... trust me, He has everything and more!! ... You like hairless cats? He can get em... I would also recommend getting a nice torque wrench and a strap wrench because you are going to be putting on and taking off the cvt and clutch for days trying to tinker with optimal setup. take the cvt plate off. I dont run with one on and recommend you just get used to not having it on for a while, unless you enjoy 4 more steps in the process while you watch to see if your belt climbs high enough on your cvt, which you mark up with a sharpie marker to gauge weather or not the belt is giving you a " 6th gear" .... I would say dont ride on dirt during this tuning time either as rocks and dust ect.... your a grown up ...

If I ran dirt i still wouldn't put one on but im a bad kid and my mom say's i have always not listened to what people have told me to do... she also told me to stop humping my pillow when i was little and i believe its either years of doing that, or my uncle frank who comes and visits me durring " special time" that are the cause of the rash... I mean he says he isnt uncle frank but I know he has that alien suit in his closet he wears when he " comes to abduct me to the spaceship"....

At any rate if I did put a cover on i would put on an after market cover carbon fiber or something because that thing weighs about 50 lbs ... anyway.... I use a torque gun to take off all my nuts for the cvt and the clutch cuz its a time saver and isnt much of a hastle to just shoot it once or twice to get it to spin off... personally AND THIS IS IMPORTANT, i wouldnt use the gun to tighten down the clutch. I would make sure I had a decent torque wrench to tighten down the nuts to spec, because one of two things happen. I used to tighten down the nut to much and it stripped the crank threads... and when that f ucker goes flying into the on coming lane of traffic and the rollers shoot out like slugs from a shotgun.... it's frowned upon when you kill someone with scooter parts. You are already behind the 8 ball because your a grown man on a scooter so thats one strike right there... then your trying to kill people in cars with parts that are flying off the bike, and thats strike two... and if you tell anyone in the jail you are in there for manslaughter from rollers that came off your scooter your going to end up holding hands with a guy named hank who, i swear to the lord, he will call you scooter boy and you will be holding his pocket until mother comes and bails you out on bond on dog the bounty hunters dollar. ..... eeeekk....

The other issue is... you might not have the nut down tight enough and the same result will happen. so from a guy who has had his cvt and clutch off and on more times then Jo ann that damn sleep around whom i used to call my girlfriend until I found her out at the grain bins with tommy tucker, has gotten off... I would suggest you get a decent tourgue wrech that will allow you set for 35 lbs and 45 lbs for the cvt and the clutch.... These are the first steps to attaining your " dream setup" ... start somewhere in the 9/11 g roller area... there will be two different sets of ramps with two different ramp angles one is for take off and the other is for top end. the stock cvt is basic and holds 6 sets of 12g rollers there is not extreme there... so when you start working with a " race" style cvt you get options, with options comes more chances for failed setups or optimal setups. there are a ton of other things you can get into regarding all this ... but what i would suggest for you is get some spring and a tst cvt and some rollers and start there. This is the first door to the sickness. I can help you get sicker but you must first take the green pill signifying you want to enter into the door to the secret society of Amsoil.

https://www.rcscooters.com/transmission-c1e2e all the items are here, contact chris if you want some personal care from a kind hearted dude who knows scooters inside and out. Call me if you want to get a beer and help me get this hotwheels car I put on dental floss up my no no hole.... I think i lost it. If you do contact Chris with RC scooters Tell him the " lamb" sent you and use the promo code for a one time 25cent discount when you type in the word... " Hairless Cat"

best way to contact chris is https://www.facebook.com/RCscooters here...

Here are some hairless cats https://www.facebook.com/hairlesscatstagram/

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:00 am
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
Key point, when I want to hammer it, I will be on the KLX. I'm looking to split the difference on the scooter. If it can out accelerate most normal cars from a stop I'm happy. Then if I can get out and run at 60 mph with reasonable confidence that's the other goal.

I'm trying to understand the gearing, that's why I asked about OEM up gear tooth count. In the video Dynamo put a 12T set up from a Majesty in the Zuma. Maked me think the Zuma has an 11 if they were gearing for more speed, or a 13 if they were gearing for acceleration. I see it was gearing for speed.

As for springs, I gather the bike (which I do not have in hand yet) is stock, so whatever is stock. Same deal with rollers. Pretty certain the bike is box stock. It was bought for the guy's wife.

So from what I've read in your post and RSC the trick will be the 1000 rpm spring, the TST variator, and the 12/40 gear set. That should straddle the fence as good as anything. The vast majority of the bike's life will be back roads and in town working lightly in the middle of the power.

Thanks for the education. That will be the direction I will go. I'm going to try to leave the scooter alone. The 250 has a flat slide and a trick Pro Circuit reverse cone megaphone exhaust laying in the garag now. I don't need another project.


Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:18 am
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Scoot Master

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:36 pm
Posts: 208
Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
If you just want it fast off the line. I would put in a 1500rpm spring No gear change and get a tst cvt. with 9/11 rollers for starters then work it out.... . that will do the trick. Gearing wont change much for you. Unless you have the cvt and the spring to complement it.

if you feel you dont get the pull of the line you are looking for you will need lighter rollers... lighter the rollers the quicker it will rip off the line.


You wont get both worlds. its fast off the line or fast at top end. if you want best of both worlds. keep it where it is... cuz you wont see much change.

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:44 am
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
As I said, I'd like about 5 mph more in speed, I doubt the driveline changes outlined would make it accelerate any worse than a 50, most of them will jump traffic from a stop. It's like my pick up truck, utilitarian. No need to rocket off the line, just keep slightly ahead of traffic if needed and enough mph to run a short distance on highways if needed and go around 60. I'd stay off the beaten path if going any distance.

Clearly the only ways to increase speed is to increase hp at higher rpm or alter gearing. Unless a big bore revs higher it won't go any faster than stock, just do it quicker. So even if I did big bore the gearing will have to change to get the speed.

Seems the variator/rollers, 1000 rpm spring, and the 12/39 or 12/40 up gear along with some Mobil1 might do the trick for me to gain maybe 5 mph.


Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:25 pm
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Scoot Master

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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
So this went from a question to you telling me how you are going to do it. I like it, a man with a mission. Seams like you have it all under control. Good luck on your findings. like i have said. you can have one or the other. either top end or take off. so if you want top end. then 800 stock spring 9/11 rollers, tst cvt and 12/39 gearing. You go girl!

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:15 pm
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
Lamb K 55 wrote:
So this went from a question to you telling me how you are going to do it. I like it, a man with a mission. Seams like you have it all under control. Good luck on your findings. like i have said. you can have one or the other. either top end or take off. so if you want top end. then 800 stock spring 9/11 rollers, tst cvt and 12/39 gearing. You go girl!


Not really teling you how. I am repeating what you told me, that I understand will do what I want. Reasonable acceleration, aka not like a Prius, with a few extra mph at the top to allow consistent 55-60 mph cruising for relatively short distances.

From everything I've read and what you've explained, before and again now, I should be on the right path. Seems the only thing I was off on was the spring, stay stock instead of going 1000 rpm. I just thought the 1000 rpm spring would act a bit like a high stall torque converter in a drag car - allowing the bike to be in a better part of the power curve before starting off. A bit more in the good range, but you are pointing out that isn't the best thing to do. So you haven't wasted your efforts. I'm trying to "straddle the acceleration-speed fence", giving a bit to get a bit. I'm looking for around 5 mph more top end and realize some quickness of acceleration will be lost. I don't think I ever asked about keeping lightning quick starts or anything, because I know it is a give and take. I'm not planning on running the stop light grand prix with this thing. Like I said, that's the job of the motorcycles, not the scooter.

I like having the gearing option, kind of like the sprockets on the bike. I've played around with this on the 250, having run super tall 15/39 sprockets where I wouldn't shift into 6th until around 60 mph - not much good on a dual sport but it would cruise at 70 mph no problem, and a 13/47 which would let the bike plow through sand or climb like a goat - but screaming at 65. Right now I'm running a 13/42 to play both ends in general, works for what I want. Enough to do the off roading I want, plus it can cruise at 60-65 if needed. The 650 did it all with displacement, but weighed a lot when on gnarly off road. Besides, the 47T ring is hanging on the wall if circumstances call for it. Actually the goal was to run a 13/47 for serious off road and a 15/47 for general use, but when I put the chain on I was in too big a hurry and cut it two links short of allowing the 15/47... bummer.

The scooter will make it a bit quicker and easier to do errands, commuting, and other stuff here in the flat lands. I just hate to wear out my dual sport tires on pavement. Plus the Zuma has some leg protection from wind and road spray that bikes don't. Besides, I've wanted a Zuma since we first started selling the 50s back in 2002 when I worked parttime in a shop selling bikes.

I thank you for the information I needed. Now again, 800 rpm spring, TST CVT with 9/11 rollers, and 12/39 up gears should split the difference the way I would like to go. I lose the drag races and won't tear 'em up at Bonneville, but I should have a good around town, with the occasional highway blast, ride right?


Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:08 am
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Scoot Master

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:36 pm
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
I would still try out the 1000 spring and its going to be a matter of preference. Cuz here is the evil of the clutch. You want it closed with the least amount of resistance while at top end. ( this is mostley only when dealing with a lower HP motor.) That being said... it can go one of two ways when trying to hold a decent top end speed. there are some times your going to wish you had the 1k spring and other times you had the 800 spring. but the sharpie test will reveal what all you need. Let me know if you understand the theory behind the sharpie test. Its sort of simple, you just want to measure the hight of the belt as it climbs up the cvt to hit the ideal ' tall tooth" say 5 to 8 mm from the top is safe when holding wot and top speed. That tst cvt and rollers are kind of a pain in the burro but also a joy.
so here is the just about all that ... you want the engine to hit the highest rpms it can at top speed. so if the belt isnt climbing up the cvt its either got to drop weights or add weights. best to start with lightest sets ... say... 8/9g roller set... then check the sharpie marks. Now I am sort of hung over from last night so I appolagise for being a mouthy bastard. I get clouded but i am even more sorry today because my mind is a little jumbled trying to type all this... but ... either you need the torque to hold the speed or you need to free up the clutch to allow it to just stay as closed as you can get it. lastly there is the shim. Its just as important as the whole system. the shim is a thin washer that sets between the two cvt face plates that dictate your " bikes gearing options"... you may have a thin, a thick, a med, when you get the tst cvt. or you may only get one. but at any rate you will have the stock one which is rather thick... that tiny little shim can make or break the diference from 60 to 65 mph... so I have given you enough to make it even more complicated. but this is the best and the worst of sort of how this all works. so just to give you an idea of what I am running I have a 1500 spring and two sets of 8g rollers so i have torque with the clutch and found the sweet spot that allows my bike to hit 9500 rpm. You want to hit highest rpm possible at top speed to allow the bike's power band to operate at optimal performance. you can check this with a tiny tac or a koso tac, or an upgrade in the taiwan speedo, or get the https://www.facebook.com/ecu.hoedar?pnref=lhc.friends chris sells all these things. the Hoedar system is like $500 but its the coolest damn technology this bike has ever seen, cuz you can litterally make the bike do anything at the touch of a button. it has auto pilot, fail safe systems, it logs your rides and lets you see where you can clean up lean and rich spots on the rpm map. you can retard the timing or advance it.... all off a laptop best part is chris does all the tech work through a computer in Hawaii while you sit back and watch him bring the bike to life with all his knowledge. Well worth every penny but thats a whole other story. take care sailor! love you. NO HO mo@

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Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:07 am
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
I have no problem with your reply, just want to clarify I'm far from a know it all, in spite of what I may say at times.

I will play with the whole thing in a few weeks. First gotta get the scoot home. Wife's gonna be surprised... It was a decent buy that I wouldn't see again soon. I had missed a 2010 for $1595 found this one at $1595, then the price cut to $1399, plus condition. I don't think it's ever even tipped over.


Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:19 am
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Scoot Master

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:36 pm
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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
Thats a really nice deal on that bike!

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Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:06 pm
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Scoot Master

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Post Re: ---Final Drive (Upgear) Swap---
let me know when you get things together with the bike. I am excited to see what happens with the setups.

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Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:57 am
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